TES:Reman I

Texte de développeur Par Michael Kirkbride, Kurt Kuhlmann, divers, Juin 2009 Ceci est une archive d'un sujet sur le lore-forum officiel. L'échange se fait principalement entre Kurt Kuhlmann qui incarne Hasphat Antabolis et Michael Kirkbride qui incarne la Société du Temple Zéro. Les messages qui ne sont pas rédigés par Hasphat ou la Société sont ceux de simples membres du forum. Reman I Verlox : Ok, so I'm reading the Remanada (a rather short piece by the way) and I come to the part about King Hjol and how he bumped uglies with a mound of mud. Now, this seems a little odd but that's besides the point. I'm tempted to take that at face vaule, because it goes on to say how his knights found him and were ashamed by what he had done. Alright, it then goes on to say that the mound of mud became a small hill, and after nine months (I'm assuming it means the mound of mud became pregnant), the sheperds and animals apparently started feeling something here. Then Sed-Yenna (I'm sure she is supposed to be something) climbes the hill (now known as Sancre Tor, the Golden Hill) and she finds Reman. Ok, so here is where I need some confirmation. Is Reman literally born from the earth, his father being King Hjol and his mother being Nirn? Is Reman I supposed to be the personification of the land of Cyrodiil? That would explain his word "I AM CYRODIIL COME". Proweler : As, Hasphat would say: King Hrol was well known in his appetites for young girls. The Reman mythology sprouted from the initial embellishment of his transgressions with the shepherdess Sed-Yenna and his dead due to exhaustion. As such Reman is not the god that later mythistorical-revisionist make him out to be but rather a bastard Son of Skyrim. In the preceding years, Sed-Yenna cleverly used the fabricated myth, and knowledge of Remans true origins as political leverage to attract and employ various factions in the Imperial City to support Reman as a proxy King. Hence that according to the myth, none objected when Reman was brought to the throne. Hasphat Antabolis : “As, Hasphat would say: King Hrol was well known in his appetites for young girls. The Reman mythology sprouted from the initial embellishment of his transgressions with the shepherdess Sed-Yenna and his dead due to exhaustion. As such Reman is not the god that later mythistorical-revisionist make him out to be but rather a bastard Son of Skyrim. In the preceding years, Sed-Yenna cleverly used the fabricated myth, and knowledge of Remans true origins as political leverage to attract and employ various factions in the Imperial City to support Reman as a proxy King. Hence that according to the myth, none objected when Reman was brought to the throne.”— Proweler Well said, sir! Taking myths at face value is a common failing of amateur historians. Reman rose to prominence by defeating the Akaviri invasion at Pale Pass. He certainly did not rule from White-Gold Tower as a babe. He did not even call himself Emperor -- the whole notion that he was the founder of a new empire did not actually come about until the time of his grandson, Reman II. The Remanada is a clear attempt to retroactively "mythologize" the founder of this new Empire. Ayaan-Si : Esteemed Antabolis, Are we to dismiss all myths in such fashion? Do you deny the divine nature of the Paravant and her consort, the Bull? Do you contest the four thousand year reign of the Tribunal, and all the miracles that happened during it? Do you ignore the recent apotheosis of His Majesty, Martin Septim, and the appearance of our lord Akatosh in view of thousands of Imperial citizens? It is haughty to dismiss the power of myth when gods walk the earth so freely. I, for one, believe, Ayaan-Si Temple Zero Society : Say what you will of amateur historians; one would think the actual cohort at issue here is obvious - amateur mythographers. Surely Master Antabolis is aware that the only contemporary "Hrol" outside of the Remanada mythologies is the almost unrecorded erfridder of Unsgrad, and anyone with a passable fluency of Middle Cyro-Norst knows the meaning of the name; to wit, "it was in this darkness that the north wind set out from the lands beyond lost Twil." Surely no doubts can exist as to the identity of King Hrol with this knowledge, but one will not see Master Antabolis reminding his followers of these inconveniencing facts. It is true that the Light of Man did not call himself Emperor, but that is a dishonest argument, intended to confuse the unlettered masses. The use of the title Emperor prior to the Third Era, is anachronistic: it was invented for Tiber Septim, as even amateur historians know. Similarly, the Ever-Living Alessia was known in her time by a variety of titles : Riverqueen, Mother of Man, Pallas-ut-Cyrod - but never was called Empress. All the same, Reman's dynastic name, the House of Cyrodiil, and his most famous coronal words, "I AM CYRODIIL COME," make clear his position in the Constellation of Lords. Even so, professor, you display a certain academic nonchalance when you identify Reman II as the "grandson" of Reman Cyrodiil, citing, no doubt, the annals of the Versidue Library. Though you may mock his person and reject his scholarship, Ingvender of Soml has unequivocally shown these documents to be later forgeries. Your posse of stiff-necked, formally de-educated, aristocratic scribblers may refuse to accept it, but even Gwylim Press admits, in its Definitive Encyclopedia of Tamriel, that Reman II was "most commonly described as being born of an egg, a cow, a river, a dragon, or some combination of these and other things." Tam! RUGH! Hasphat Antabolis : Put on your orichalcum hats, gentlemen, and keep on the lookout for Psijiics in the shrubbery. The Temple Zero Society has landed. “Surely Master Antabolis is aware that the only contemporary "Hrol" outside of the Remanada mythologies is the almost unrecorded erfridder of Unsgrad, and anyone with a passable fluency of Middle Cyro-Norst knows the meaning of the name; to wit, "it was in this darkness that the north wind set out from the lands beyond lost Twil." Surely no doubts can exist as to the identity of King Hrol with this knowledge, but one will not see Master Antabolis reminding his followers of these inconveniencing facts.”— Temple Zero Society Circular reasoning, sir. The Remanada mythologies cannot be reliably dated prior to the mid-Second Era, and are themselves likely based on the very reference to "Hrol" you use to attempt to bolster their authenticity. “It is true that the Light of Man did not call himself Emperor, but that is a dishonest argument, intended to confuse the unlettered masses. The use of the title Emperor prior to the Third Era, is anachronistic: it was invented for Tiber Septim, as even amateur historians know. Similarly, the Ever-Living Alessia was known in her time by a variety of titles : Riverqueen, Mother of Man, Pallas-ut-Cyrod - but never was called Empress. All the same, Reman's dynastic name, the House of Cyrodiil, and his most famous coronal words, "I AM CYRODIIL COME," make clear his position in the Constellation of Lords.”— Temple Zero Society And anyone with passable fluency of Middle Cyro-Norst knows that the Tamrielic "Empress" is derived from the Cyro-Nordic title "Mother of Man"! To say she was never called "Empress" is simply to state the obvious, to wit, that no one yet spoke Tamrielic 3000 years before the language first developed. “Even so, professor, you display a certain academic nonchalance when you identify Reman II as the "grandson" of Reman Cyrodiil, citing, no doubt, the annals of the Versidue Library. Though you may mock his person and reject his scholarship, Ingvender of Soml has unequivocally shown these documents to be later forgeries. Your posse of stiff-necked, formally de-educated, aristocratic scribblers may refuse to accept it, but even Gwylim Press admits, in its Definitive Encyclopedia of Tamriel, that Reman II was "most commonly described as being born of an egg, a cow, a river, a dragon, or some combination of these and other things." Tam! RUGH!”— Temple Zero Society Indeed, I may mock Ingvender, that flag-in-the-wind, sometime penny-dreadful hack, jumped-up pretender to academic regalia bought second-hand from the ragman, dupe and stalking horse of the assembled cranks of our decaying civilization -- I may and I have. "Unequivocal" only if you accept absurd leaps in logic, ignore the fact that most of his sources are his own books (themselves almost entirely based on "confidential research" in "private archives"), and believe implicitly in the deep truth of every myth and children's fable ever told at hearthside. You also fail to quote the Encyclopedia's entry in full. I would never wish doubt to be cast on the good name of Gwylim Press, so allow me: "In tales circulated after his coronation as Emperor, Reman II was most commonly described as being born of an egg, a cow, a river, a dragon, or some combination of these and other things. However, in the one contemporary account we have of his accession to power he is more prosaically described as follows: 'in coloring and stature he takes after his mother's people, but in all other respects recalls his grandfather'." The mosaic pavements unearthed in the excavations of the Winter Palace in Rimmen depict him as tall and blonde-haired, suggesting that his mother's people are more likely to be Nords than river-dragons. Hasphat Antabolis : “Esteemed Antabolis, Are we to dismiss all myths in such fashion? Do you deny the divine nature of the Paravant and her consort, the Bull? Do you contest the four thousand year reign of the Tribunal, and all the miracles that happened during it? Do you ignore the recent apotheosis of His Majesty, Martin Septim, and the appearance of our lord Akatosh in view of thousands of Imperial citizens? It is haughty to dismiss the power of myth when gods walk the earth so freely. I, for one, believe, Ayaan-Si”— Ayaan-Si Let me be clear. The Powers that govern our world and beyond are not for me to judge or to doubt. Their handiwork is self-evident and I leave their study to the philosophers and theologians. Indeed, my long acquantaince with the Dwemer leave me no doubt that they meddled in things that were best left alone. However, it is the essential duty of the historian to separate the "true myths" (those which can be attested to the transcendent Powers) from the "created myths" (those which are created by mundane powers to bolster their own interests on the backs of the gullible). In my experience, the former are far fewer than most would prefer to believe -- people prefer a good story over prosaic reality. Luagar : “However, it is the essential duty of the historian to separate the "true myths" (those which can be attested to the transcendent Powers) from the "created myths" (those which are created by mundane powers to bolster their own interests on the backs of the gullible). In my experience, the former are far fewer than most would prefer to believe -- people prefer a good story over prosaic reality.”— Hasphat Antabolis They surely do. But how can one separate the 'true myths' from the 'created' in a world where myth through circular means verifies itself as real, causing the real to be shaped by the mythical, and the mythical to become real - for instance the Divines who died/departed/assimilated/abandoned the world a long time ago still making themselves known, gods make men and then the men make the gods. Temple Zero Society : “Circular reasoning, sir. The Remanada mythologies cannot be reliably dated prior to the mid-Second Era, and are themselves likely based on the very reference to "Hrol" you use to attempt to bolster their authenticity.”— Hasphat Antabolis Of course the Remanada can only be "reliably" dated to the Second Era, when the Imperial University refuses to open its libraries to honest scholarship, and the records of the monastery at Weynon were lost to daedra before they could be properly examined. But the evidence is there, whether Professor Hasphat accepts it or not. As to the identity of Hrol - the Temple stands in awe that our most enlightened colleague is of such a dry character that metaphor seems beyond his comprehension. “And anyone with passable fluency of Middle Cyro-Norst knows that the Tamrielic "Empress" is derived from the Cyro-Nordic title "Mother of Man"! To say she was never called "Empress" is simply to state the obvious, to wit, that no one yet spoke Tamrielic 3000 years before the language first developed.”— Hasphat Antabolis The Society was aware that professor Antabolis had handily adjusted his linguistic judgement in the service of Sedur Norilnor, but we had no idea that he would be equally sloppy in other contexts. Historical reconstruction has shown "Emperor' and 'Empress" to have surprisingly dissimilar etymological origins. The former is based on the longer title first taken by Cuhlecain, "Emen Peror Ele" or "First Emissary of the Stars". The latter was, as you have noted, derived from the Cyrodiic "Mother of Man", Auma-Par-Eshe, or Alma-Par-Essi in its oldest Aldmeri form. Folk etymology later transformed that archaic title into a female equivalent of "Emperor", which first appeared in writing during the reign of Uriel II and was well established by the time Kintyra assumed the throne. All the same, if you concede that the term was never used until the so-called development of what is now labelled "Tamrielic" - and here is one myth we may safely rationalize -, your argument that Reman Cyrodiil "did not even call himself Emperor" seems debunked. “You also fail to quote the Encyclopedia's entry in full. I would never wish doubt to be cast on the good name of Gwylim Press, so allow me: "In tales circulated after his coronation as Emperor, Reman II was most commonly described as being born of an egg, a cow, a river, a dragon, or some combination of these and other things. However, in the one contemporary account we have of his accession to power he is more prosaically described as follows: 'in coloring and stature he takes after his mother's people, but in all other respects recalls his grandfather'." The mosaic pavements unearthed in the excavations of the Winter Palace in Rimmen depict him as tall and blonde-haired, suggesting that his mother's people are more likely to be Nords than river-dragons.”— Hasphat Antabolis Fashion and family resemblances set aside, professor, historical accounts confirm that Reman II was born three decades after his father's death. Tam! RUGH! A. Platorius : Ah, it would appear that the Temple Zero Society, that persistent dark horse of the Imperial academia, has reared its head into our discussion to beat us all over the head with theories of Tower-dancing and mytho-memetic recapitulation. Still, with all due respect toward the esteemed professor from Morrowind (how goes the research, by the by?), I must concede that they bring to mind a point that has not been discussed as-yet. Said professor Antabolis: “However, it is the essential duty of the historian to separate the "true myths" (those which can be attested to the transcendent Powers) from the "created myths" (those which are created by mundane powers to bolster their own interests on the backs of the gullible). In my experience, the former are far fewer than most would prefer to believe -- people prefer a good story over prosaic reality.”— Hasphat Antabolis However, resident scholar Luagar countered: “They surely do. But how can one separate the 'true myths' from the 'created' in a world where myth through circular means verifies itself as real, causing the real to be shaped by the mythical, and the mythical to become real - for instance the Divines who died/departed/assimilated/abandoned the world a long time ago still making themselves known, gods make men and then the men make the gods.”— Luagar If I may be so bold, I find that I must agree with my esteemed colleague in pointing out, Mr. Antabolis, that you do not take into account the role of mythopoeia in the alteration of the historical record -- sometimes literally, sometimes symbolically, oftentimes both in a way that has lasting magickal and metaphysical repercussions. Considering your operations in Morrowind, which you yourself have mentioned earlier in the discussion, you of all people should be aware of the cascade effect of a mythopoeic deed, as evidenced by the Tribunal's actions atop Red Mountain thousands of years ago. In this case, I believe we may be ignoring the possibility of a similar cascade event having occurred "during" (or, perhaps, after, in a recapitulation/redefinition of) the birth of Reman I. While I can already predict your objection to what I am about to propose, I believe it may well be irrelevant whether Hrol's offspring was the product of a god-kings liaison with Alessia-mud or a mad soldier's [censored] of a child -- mythically, they seem to have achieved the same purpose. Ostensibly, this may appear a paradox, but the proof lies in the Amulet of Kings, Chim-el Abadal. As we know from the Daedric Invasion, the Amulet of Kings has such a connection to the royal line that it is able to identify one who is an heir to that line, primarily because anyone who is not of the Septim lineage cannot wear it. Yet witness reports say that Mankar Cameron, the leader of the Daedra-worshipping cult that opened up portals into Mundus in the first place, was indeed able to wear the jewel. Further, the Imperial line itself has been broken and replaced by different families several times -- not the least of which is the huge gap between the Reman Dynasty and that of the Septims, both of whom were able to wear the Amulet. Such evidence has led (most) members of this community to agree, then, that the bond between Tamriel's royalty and the Amulet of Kings is one based on meeting certain mythic prerequisites and fulfilling a particular dualistic mythic archetype (the Enantiomorph), not upon lineage. Thus, it must be concluded that if the Remans were able to wear the Amulet of Kings, as has been historically attested to, then they (or Hrol, or the Hrol-figure, etc) must have fulfilled this preresquisites -- perhaps, as one early contributor to this discussion noted, through a re-enaction of Akatosh's role in the Creation. In short: credence must be lent to Temple Zero's claim that, at a fundamental level, the Remanada is what you would call a "true" myth -- be it through historical recapitulation of the Enantiomorphic trinity or through later mythopoeia on the part of Talos and his consorts. Perhaps my betters in this community would be able to elaborate better than I. With regards, ~A. Platorius Hasphat Antabolis : “All the same, if you concede that the term was never used until the so-called development of what is now labelled "Tamrielic" - and here is one myth we may safely rationalize -, your argument that Reman Cyrodiil "did not even call himself Emperor" seems debunked.”— Temple Zero Society It's depressing to have to actually explain how you've just conceded this point to me. Alessia didn't call herself (literally) "Empress" because that word didn't exist yet, but she did call herself by the Cyro-Nordic word that eventually came to mean "Empress" in Tamrielic. So the term "Empress Alessia" is appropriate. Likewise, Reman I did not call himself "Emperor", both because that word didn't exist yet, AND because he chose not to use the Cyro-Nordic title that came to mean "Emperor" in Tamrielic. So, the statement "Reman Cyrodiil didn't call himself Emperor" is accurate on all fronts. Temple Zero Society : Others have made very cogent arguments (though Professor Antabolis will not admit it), but the facts remain thus: though Reman Cyrodiil never took the title "Emperor," he claimed all the pretences thereof from the moment of his coronation at the White Gold. Again, "I AM CYRODIIL COME." It does not surprise, though it does disappoint, the Temple that our most esteemed opponent continues relentlessly to diminish the House of Cyrodiil. All know of his unfortunate dishonesty in the service of the Hlaalu, but perhaps the street is not aware that since returning to the Province, he has taken as his patron one Casmon Oricoses, a notoriously corrupt bureaucrat who has every motive in the aftermath of the Oblivion Crisis to elevate the uniquely august status of the House of Septim. Even ignoring the ties between Cuhlecain and the Reman dynasty and the questions surrounding his assassination, the Professor's motive in diminishing the former Empire is clearly suspect. Hasphat Antabolis : “While I can already predict your objection to what I am about to propose, I believe it may well be irrelevant whether Hrol's offspring was the product of a god-kings liaison with Alessia-mud or a mad soldier's [censored] of a child -- mythically, they seem to have achieved the same purpose. Ostensibly, this may appear a paradox, but the proof lies in the Amulet of Kings, Chim-el Abadal. As we know from the Daedric Invasion, the Amulet of Kings has such a connection to the royal line that it is able to identify one who is an heir to that line, primarily because anyone who is not of the Septim lineage cannot wear it. Yet witness reports say that Mankar Cameron, the leader of the Daedra-worshipping cult that opened up portals into Mundus in the first place, was indeed able to wear the jewel. Further, the Imperial line itself has been broken and replaced by different families several times -- not the least of which is the huge gap between the Reman Dynasty and that of the Septims, both of whom were able to wear the Amulet. Such evidence has led (most) members of this community to agree, then, that the bond between Tamriel's royalty and the Amulet of Kings is one based on meeting certain mythic prerequisites and fulfilling a particular dualistic mythic archetype (the Enantiomorph), not upon lineage. Thus, it must be concluded that if the Remans were able to wear the Amulet of Kings, as has been historically attested to, then they (or Hrol, or the Hrol-figure, etc) must have fulfilled this preresquisites -- perhaps, as one early contributor to this discussion noted, through a re-enaction of Akatosh's role in the Creation. In short: credence must be lent to Temple Zero's claim that, at a fundamental level, the Remanada is what you would call a "true" myth -- be it through historical recapitulation of the Enantiomorphic trinity or through later mythopoeia on the part of Talos and his consorts.”— A. Platorius Ah, this old chestnut. Let me attempt to lay it to rest once again. (Although, like King Lysandus, I have no doubt that it will rise again.) It is clear for a multitude of reasons that the Septim propaganda that only those of the Septim lineage can wear the Amulet is just that: Septim propaganda, designed to prop up the dynasty. Even at face value, the claim is absurd -- the Amulet pre-existed Tiber Septim therefore was clearly worn by those NOT of the Septim lineage, e.g. the Reman emperors and the original Cyrodilic Emperors. (Did someone accuse me of being a spear-carrier for the Septims?) It is also well-attested that Mankar Camoran wore the Amulet of Kings. While it seems that being a Septim (read: legitimate claimant to the Ruby Throne) was a sufficient condition for the Amulet permitting its use, it was clearly not necessary. Not to mention the several obvious gaps in the Septim "bloodline" that you mention. Clearly, literal descent from Tiber Septim has nothing to do with the use of the Amulet of Kings. So, we are in agreement on this: “Such evidence has led (most) members of this community to agree, then, that the bond between Tamriel's royalty and the Amulet of Kings is one based on meeting certain mythic prerequisites and fulfilling a particular dualistic mythic archetype (the Enantiomorph), not upon lineage.”— A. Platorius But I'm afraid I cannot follow your logical leap to here: “Thus, it must be concluded that if the Remans were able to wear the Amulet of Kings, as has been historically attested to, then they (or Hrol, or the Hrol-figure, etc) must have fulfilled this preresquisites -- perhaps, as one early contributor to this discussion noted, through a re-enaction of Akatosh's role in the Creation.”— A. Platorius No one claims that Uriel VII was born of an egg, or any of his predecessors (at least down until old Tiber himself where facts again fade into a haze of dynastic propaganda). Or Mankar Camoran for that matter. Or any of the other Cyrodilic Emperors (whose succession appears for a very long time NOT to have been based on blood relation). Why do we require Reman Cyrodiil to have special mythic significance? Aside from the obvious need for his successors to retroactively justify their rule over the whole of Tamriel... You might consider their use of the Amulet of Kings to have been justification enough, but as I have said, people like a good story.